Radix: Well, Arthur, first of all, thank you so much for your willingness to do this. I really appreciate being able to talk to you because of your background with contemplative issues, with your interest in various aspects of religion, and also your teaching. I would dare say that you deal with things in a complex way, but it’s not unapproachable.
I’m really grateful to be able to pick your brain and to share this with the Radix audience. So thank you very much for being willing to do this.
AA: Well, thanks for the invitation. I think it’s going to be a great conversation. I’m sure that your questions are going to provoke a lot of responses from me and hopefully this whole discussion will be of great value to your audience. I’m sure we’re going to cover a lot of territory.
Radix: Yes, we are.
AA: I’m looking forward to it.
Radix: Cool. Well, first of all—just for everybody to know a little bit more about you, how you got to be where you’re at, and what you appreciate about what you’re doing—just tell us a bit about yourself.
AA: Well, I describe myself as a Christian contemplative, an essayist, an educator. I came back to Christianity after exploring Eastern traditions when I discovered the mystical thread in the Christian tradition, and I began to write as an extension of my spiritual practice. So, I’m bringing together my lifelong passion for the arts and my interest in visual culture. And I found that there was a marriage already in place in the field of theological aesthetics. So, I kind of backed into that field by chance, and then I turned around and embraced it. I’ve been exploring it in depth ever since that discovery and found a lot of really interesting people doing some fascinating work in every area of image-making, both historically and contemporarily.
That’s been an ongoing inspiration for me as I’ve continued to explore Christian theology, always with an interest in how other traditions can inform new perspectives in the Christian faith. So that remains an ongoing interest in the exploration of interfaith relationships, great thinkers of the past, and what they bring to our contemporary situation in terms of understanding the relationship of faith to culture, and, ultimately, how we can live with the mind of Christ in our everyday, practical living situation.
Radix: Do you mind if I ask a little bit, because you’ve written courses, you’ve taught for a while, I would assume that that would enable you to be able to explain in a way that would be, I won’t say superior, but I will say possibly better than maybe what the average person could do because you think about not just the issues yourself, but also how to explain those things to individuals who don’t know as much?
AA: Yeah, well, of course, it’s important to know your audience and where they’re coming from to try to meet them where they are as an educator. That’s really critical, and the challenge for me in anything that I’m teaching is choosing what I’m going to focus on, and what I’m going to have to cut out for practical purposes, for logistical reasons. That’s always difficult because the world of art is so vast, choosing where you’re going to come in and how you’re going to bracket a certain period or set of issues involves critically examining what it is that you can accomplish realistically in a given period of time, who the students are, and how you can most effectively package that material. Also, what are your strengths as an educator? And where are your passions so that you can bring an energy into what it is that you’re teaching? And then things kind of flow from there.
Radix: So I’m gonna say, the world of art is very interesting to me. I came from a background that was more rural. It was a slightly more ‘utilitarian work was important’ approach, such that I simply didn’t have the ability to appreciate art in the way that some other people do. And I’ve since tried to educate myself better now and the more I see art and the more I talk to other people about art, it seems to me—and I think we can talk within a Christian framework right now—that even though there’s much more awareness of the importance of art, how it contributes to culture, and how it contributes to our flourishing spirituality, Christians probably don’t know as much as they could. So, I wonder if I could ask you as someone who knows, what are some of the basics that we should be knowing about art, just in general? And forgive the ignorance of that question, because I’m asking as someone who doesn’t know that much, so I appreciate you being able to explain some of those things to us—just the beginnings, you know, the foundational aspects that you think are important to know about.
AA: Well, that’s a pretty large question. I mean, if you want to talk about some of the common misunderstandings we could begin from that.
Radix: Sure.
AA: Maybe the answers would come about through that lens. The general public doesn’t have a really strong grasp of the importance of the visual arts.
If we’re talking about—and we need to be specific—in most cultures in the world, the place of the artist and the role of art is fairly significant and visible in the culture. In Armenia, for example––I’m Armenian and I visit Armenia periodically and I never fail to see the importance of art and culture, to the Armenian people. Artists are really placed at the forefront of the culture and treated with a respect and a dignity that you don’t see in a society that’s really caught up with commodities and consumerism. It’s a different set of values and ideas about what’s important in life, so I think that, in the U.S. anyway, it’s an exceptional situation for artists. It’s not the standard by any means that artists are seen really as insignificant or part of sort of a special class of people that really only engages with what they’re doing if there is the luxury of time and leisure, you know.
In Christianity, there are specific issues and misunderstandings about the role of the artist and the place of art. For example, the notion that creating or appreciating art is a form of idolatry, I mean, that goes back a long way. When Christians associate art with the worship of false gods or the elevation of human creations above God, that becomes a problem and leads to the rejection or mistrust of artistic expressions. So, there becomes really a block there to appreciating the role of art in the larger culture.
Now, a lot of these also are shared by the general population. One of them is that this idea that art is inherently superficial or worldly, or that it lacks spiritual depth, thinking of art as a frivolous pursuit. That’s something that’s certainly shared by many in the general public. With Christians, there’s also a belief that art can be morally corrupting. There’s a focus on—again, shared by both Christians and the general public—on external aesthetics without recognizing the potential for deeper meaning expression, and reflection. That art provides—again, in terms of Christianity—the compartmentalizing of art and faith, which reflects with the general population, the compartmentalizing of different aspects of daily living, compartmentalizing art as this unique and particular pursuit that’s only suited for certain types of people or for particular types of interests, looking at art as a separate realm from faith, as two things that don’t really intersect and it leads to the neglect of art as a means of spiritual exploration.
So, for Christians, there’s that loss where there isn’t the recognition that art can support worship or allow one to engage with theological ideas and, again, shared by both groups, but particularly intense in terms of the Christian community, I think, or certain Christian communities, is the restrictive views on subject matter that many people have. So, this is when certain themes like nudity or representations of biblical figures are seen as inappropriate or sacrilegious, which hinders the exploration of diverse artistic expressions, as well as the ability of artists to engage with the religious themes in meaningful ways.
Radix: Hmm. Mmhmm.
AA: All of these things really become limitations to our understanding and the level of engagement that we’re willing to enter into. But there’s also been a growing recognition in the Christian world that art can be a powerful tool for spiritual exploration for worship and for communicating theological ideas. That’s something that I do in my own writing.
I also have recognized in my studies that Christians are embracing art as a means to express faith, engage with the divine, and explore the complexities of the human experience. That’s happening more and more. Partly, I think, through efforts to bridge the gap between faith and art with initiatives like art ministries, Christian artists’ collectives, as well as various forms of theological reflection on the significance of art. All of this fosters a greater appreciation and understanding of the art within Christianity, and, as a result, some of the misunderstandings I mentioned are gradually being challenged and overcome. So, that’s exciting.
Radix: I think if you would touch on a little bit more… It has been the case, I think, that within Christianity, there’s been this fear of imagination, and you’ve touched on this already about the fear of exciting the imagination towards something that’s negative, but then the problem is cutting that off. That’s created all kinds of problems in and of itself because we’re not able to, we could even say, worship fully. So, it sounds like you’re hopeful. Am I accurate?
AA: Well, I think that with more awareness, and with more work being done in this intersection of art and faith, and, along with it, the recognition that visual culture is so significant in our understanding of the world. It’s just a matter of time before these ideas, I think, are broadly accepted that we have to understand our visual culture in order to understand our relationship to our faith and how we function in the world. And, in this opening up to visual culture, I think comes the recognition that there’s a liberation there, that there’s a lot of things that we can do through images, and with images, and understanding how images function to enrich our lives, to deepen our faith, and to broaden our understanding of the divine in our everyday lives.
Radix: Hmm.
AA: We have to be willing to be open to what we might find, and, if one is fearful of going beyond a prescribed set of beliefs, then one will never get there. If you’re content, you know, living in a box, then you’re limiting the self-discovery that is really fundamental to the spiritual journey.
Radix: Mm-hmm. Your use of that word, the fear thing, that has been something… A common theme that has come out from the other people that I’ve talked to on this is that we have to be able to overcome the fear, which—and we can talk of this as Christians—requires some faith and belief that God can move through things that we typically might have been concerned about, or at least some of us have been concerned about.
AA: Yeah, I mean, fear is an ego-based thing anyway. It’s this concern with boundaries being violated, and our order that we’ve set up for ourselves being toppled in some way, but, you know, it’s only by toppling the walls that we create around ourselves that we can grow and that we can move forward and that we can mature spiritually.
So, if you want to be coddled, or be told that your beliefs about reality are correct, and your efforts go towards maintaining your boundaries, then you’ll remain spiritually immature, so that’s not something that I would want anybody that I care about to be. I wouldn’t want anybody I care about to be trapped in that kind of a mindset, because that helps to feed fear, and leads to all kinds of divisions and restrictions on one’s ability to live fully.
Radix: Another potentially ignorant question, but you’re forgiving, so it’s okay. What makes an artist—and it’s complicated because there are a variety of different artists. I mean, there’s the visual, there’s the audio, there’s …, but in, in some generalities, what makes an artist unique in your perspective? And I think for me, it’s a bit of a way of perceiving, of seeing the world or hearing the world, of attending to the world that makes them somewhat unique, but what other things, you know, including that are important for an average person to know?
AA: Well, artists possess a unique gift, and that’s the creative imagination. Now, we’re all creative by nature, but the artist is the individual for whom the creative imagination is central and drives the creative imagination, their daily living, and their vocation. So this creative imagination is partly what allows the individual to envision and bring to life ideas, concepts, emotions, and tangible forms. It allows an artist, a person who takes on the role of the artist, to communicate and express things in ways that go beyond traditional verbal or written communication.
Christians also believe that humanity is created in the image of God, and, as a reflection of a creator, artists have the opportunity to participate in the act of creation. They bring beauty, meaning, and order into the world, and then, through their art, they can reflect the creativity and the artistic nature of God. Artists also exercise the power to communicate profound truths, evoke emotions, and transcend ordinary experiences. They explore and convey spiritual, moral, and existential questions, and, through their work, they can point towards ultimate truths as well as the divine, and express depths of human experience, offering glimpses of the transcendent as well.
Artists also challenge perspectives and provoke thought. This is really important, challenging prevailing perspectives and critiquing societal norms, questioning assumptions, and stimulating reflection on important issues. The artist has a particular role in society, and, depending on the structure of that society, they will take on a particular shape and provide unique impact and types of insights to that culture. But every culture and every historical period has its artists, and they are just as important as its priests in providing insight into the nature of reality. Christian artists, particularly, can engage with the complexities of faith, they can challenge religious dogmas, and, through their work, they can invite dialogue and introspection. Their production has a potential to inspire and uplift the human spirit to convey hope, redemption, and the transformative power of faith, as well. So, it’s a source of encouragement where it can provide inspiration for others. It can nurture the spiritual and emotional well-being of individuals and communities. But it’s important to also keep in mind that not all artists who identify as Christians will incorporate explicitly religious themes in their work, but their faith can still inform their creative process, their values, and their worldview, and then will influence the way they approach their craft and interact with the world around them.
Radix: Just as a little aside, it’s come up, and you’ve no doubt heard this too, sometimes Christian artists, in whatever form they are, and I hate using that word for—so someone like C. S. Lewis said, and others––“don’t use the word ‘Christian artists’ or ‘Christian writers’ or ‘Christian bakers’ or ‘Christian scientists’; just do your work and then it won’t have this element of propaganda to it.” So I like—and it sounds like from you and from others—that Christians can be free from… it doesn’t have to have always that Christian element to it. It can just be art and that’s going to make it beautiful and good and it’s going to help people. Artists don’t have to have this idea in their mind that it has to be right. John Franklin from Imago, has a statement where he said, “People think about how they’re worried about getting the art right,” which means, you know, getting it theologically accurate, and he said, “No, no, no, no. Don’t worry about that. Get it real and then it will be right.”
AA: Yeah, I mean, as soon as you say “Christian artists,” you’re kind of bracketing that individual off into this specialized area. It no longer becomes about trying to connect with truth and speak to the nature of humanity, right? It becomes something that’s particular, like a trade.
Radix: Mmhmm.
AA: I found it really helpful to think about the theological dimension of art as something that embraces all of the social, political, and economic categories or theoretical constructs that artists typically engage with in more or less purposeful ways. So, for example, if an artist is working from a postcolonial standpoint, and engaging with issues that have to do with justice and the equality of people of all kinds, this idea of “love of thy neighbor” is something that encompasses that. So, I’m always able to find some sort of Christian ethic underlying the most powerful art.
It’s interesting, because many artists today, as there’s been sort of a return to spiritual interest in art making—one of the things that are commonly talked about is the lack of a language to talk in mainstream art criticism about spiritual issues in contemporary art, but that so many artists are kind of quietly on their own being inspired through spiritual matters or their own spiritual journey. They just don’t talk about it, and it’s not explicit in their work, but it’s something that drives their motivation to create and something that feeds them personally, which of course ends up factoring into their work in one way or another. You are always in your work. So, if you’re a Christian, your work is Christian. That’s the way I look at it.
Radix: Right, right, because these issues coming up in terms of artists being bringers of truth, and the theme for this issue of Radix is “Artist as Prophet: Making the Invisible Visible.” Would you mind talking a little bit about artist as prophet, which, I know, is complex because first of all, it not only begs the question, “What is an artist?” but also “What is prophetic?” and different people have different assumptions about what that is.
AA: Yeah. So, how are you defining it in this context, “prophet?” Do you have a framework that we can speak through?
Radix: I’m familiar with a little bit of Brueggemann, so that idea of prophet being a corrective to society, and from the little I know, I mean, that’s accurate that good prophets do that. So, to join an artist and a prophet together. So, if an artist is someone who is able to be a corrective to society in some way that’s great and that’s good, and I believe they can do that. There is the other issue of, and Gregory Wolf talked about this a little bit, about the problem of if an artist thinks that they are able to stand completely separate from society, and I mean, in a way, they are, because they are someone like Fujimura talks about—and it’s not a totally new idea, but—artists being border-stalkers, that they are able to kind of get out of the typical tribe and then bring back into the tribe these ideas that are good, helpful and useful, minus the utilitarian stance. So an artist does have to be outside, and yet they can’t. They can’t just assume of themselves that they’re so outside that they’re actually not part of the community. They’re still, we’re still human. We’re still part of the group and so the sticky line between, yes, standing outside, but still speaking from within the group, kind of.
AA: Right. Yeah, well, you can’t escape your cultural frame. I think viewing artists as prophets is an intriguing perspective, and it’s been explored by theologians, philosophers and artists themselves throughout history. And while the comparison between artists and prophets can be thought-provoking—and you do hear a lot about it today—it’s important to approach the concept with some nuance and recognize the distinctions between the two roles.
So, a few thoughts on artists as prophets. First of all, some similarities kind of related to what you were just saying. There is the prophetic sensibility, I would say, where you can say that both artists and prophets often exhibit a heightened sensitivity to the world around them. So, this means that they have the ability to perceive and articulate deep truths, to challenge societal norms, and to provoke thought. Certainly, artists can offer unique insights and critiques through their creative expressions, and this is similar to the way prophets speak uncomfortable truths to society, so there’s certainly a parallel there. Both prophets, traditionally, as we understand them, going back to scripture, and artists will challenge the status quo, so this is something that might take the form of pushing for social change. We see a lot of that in the contemporary art world today, art that is interwoven with activism. So, both artists and prophets can address pressing issues, highlight injustices, and call for transformation, and, by using their creativity and their artistic voice, artists can inspire dialogue. They can question prevailing narratives, and, like the prophet, they can envision alternative possibilities.
Another way that I think the artist and the prophet are almost interchangeable is in the ability to embody paradox and ambiguity. Both artists and profits grapple with paradox, ambiguity, and the complexity of the human condition. That’s not something that they shy away from, but something that they embrace, actually, in the work that they do and their vocations. They both delve into the depths of emotions, experiences, and existential questions, they explore tensions between opposites, you know, light and dark, hope and despair, beauty and brokenness. And artists through their work will capture these complexities, and, at the same time, they invite viewers or listeners to engage with these profound truths, and these are not the types of things that ordinary people are attracted to. So, when you talk about the artist and the prophet living in their society and outside of it, I think that’s how I would define it, that they are always inside their cultural and historical context, but because they engage with these difficult truths, that puts them outside of the norm and makes them exceptional and necessary figures to, in a sense, pull society along with them.
Now, in terms of differences, and these are really important to note because we don’t want to confuse artists and prophets. They are not the same thing. You’ve got individual expression versus divine revelation. Okay, so, while artists may share some similarities with prophets, some of the things that I was mentioning, there are essential differences.
Prophets typically receive divine revelation and are called to convey specific messages from God to the people. Jeremiah, Isaiah, right? Criticizing the abuses of the Israelites, reminding them of their covenant. Now, artists express personal perspective, their own view of the world and their own experiences, which may or may not align with explicit divine revelation. It’s speaking to the world through one’s own perceptions and understanding of the issues that the work is engaged with.
Also, there’s what we could call a limited predictive function with artists because prophets are associated with making predictions or foretelling the future, right? Coming from the idea of the seer, you know, in ancient times. Artists don’t possess a predictive function. They offer insights and interpretations of the present reality and through their work, invite contemplation, reflection, and engagement with the world as it is. Now, often I’ll use the term visionary artist. But by that, I mean in my teaching context, and by that, I mean the artist is seeing things in the present reality that others aren’t seeing and bringing attention to how it is that we’re living, and this becomes a revelation for the people, you know, or it can. So, this kind of looking forward can come about through, okay, if we understand our present reality and we can look at the world in this different way, that gives us a new insight. How can we build on this and thinking about the future, and that becomes a visionary, not in a literal thing of the future, but in an imagining of the possibilities that we could be living in if we fulfill our potential.
So, it’s essential to recognize that not all artists function as prophets, and not all prophets engage in artistic expression, for example, writing, but the comparison between artists and prophets is, I think, a nice metaphorical framework to appreciate the transformative power of art and its potential to challenge, inspire, and awaken the human spirit.
Radix: Right, do you think with all that in mind and keeping in mind, the border-stalker idea, I wonder if, if there’s something that could be said to how we, as average people, would be more willing to accept the artist as prophet, and, whether it’s letting go of fear or concern, whatever it is. How do you think that we as people could be more open to that role of artist?
AA: Well, I think it begins with appreciating the artist’s role, some of the things that we’ve been talking about, and then recognizing what the artist brings. And this is an example of where relating the artist to the prophet might be helpful, because if we’re thinking in terms of spiritual depth, spiritual growth, and the spiritual journey, what is it that the artist or art, in general, can bring to our own personal development? If we really recognize art for what it is, and we really appreciate artists for what they do, their function in society, and their necessity, then we can turn towards what they’re doing with a more open mind. Receptive, as opposed to approaching art with our arms crossed and asking it to prove itself to us.
Then, we can gradually enter into the riches that the artist provides, and start to appreciate on an individual basis where the value can be for us, you know, what art of any kind can point us towards, and what new doors it can open for us, and the rest, I think, would take care of itself. Art would then start to have a more prominent place in our spiritual lives, and of course, through that, in our ordinary everyday reality, it would just become part of what we recognize as necessary to being human, as opposed to this luxury sphere, or this elite cultural construct that is again, you know, some specialty area for the initiated only.
Radix: Speaking of the initiated only—and again, speaking to my lack of experience with art—so, when I was growing up, and my only experience with someone of the higher arts was, she was a total snob, not a good representation of, you know—it’s like high-end opera. Of course, someone, you know, 6 or 7 years old probably can’t appreciate some high-end opera. So that was, you know, coming from the rural farm background. My experience with art was very little, and then what I did get was this high-end elitist type that I was not trained to appreciate.
And I think sometimes too many people have an idea that art is something that’s high-end. Or it’s elite. It’s super complicated, and there isn’t an appreciation for it. And I am not saying that artists should, in any way, try to dumb down their work. I mean, that’s not what they should be doing. And I think that the churches should––pastors should––be encouraging people to learn more about arts to have a greater appreciation for what it can do, for the appreciation that it’s required as part of human flourishing.
But I wonder what the role of the artist is in terms of—and it’s complicated–but what do you think are the obligations and responsibilities of the artist in a way to not come about as potentially alienating to some people?
AA: Well, I think the nature of art is that it’s a social act. So, wrapped up in the creative process is the understanding that this is something that’s going to be shared with others, so it’s not like it’s an extra obligation that the artist has to get their work out into the world. It really doesn’t exist fully until it’s received, and there’s that loop, you know, between the artist and the audience, and it enters into the world, and takes its place alongside other things. The artist has to release it. There’s also, of course, the artist’s own interest and promoting what they’re doing so that they can be encouraged, supported, and part of the larger cultural dialogue, so there are specific actions that artists can take in order to connect what they’re doing to the larger society. One is that artists can strive to make their work more accessible to a broader audience. So, rather than thinking simply in terms of the gallery or the museum and the contemplative mode of appreciating and interacting with art, in the space of the exhibition, artists can showcase their art in diverse settings like community centers, public spaces, or online platforms. By bringing their art into such everyday spaces, artists can make it more approachable and increase its visibility. They can actively engage with a local community in order to connect with a wider audience, including participating in community events. They can collaborate with local organizations. They can organize workshops and art demonstrations. Artists can build relationships and demonstrate community, the value of art in people’s lives, generate interest, and cultivate a sense of ownership and participation with the public to whom they are speaking. They can share insights into the creative process to demystify art and make it more relatable. I think when people understand that, fundamentally, we’re all creative individuals, we’re all made in the image of God, who is a creator, then we can begin to appreciate how we’re creative on a daily basis. People tend to take for granted that they’re creative by nature and we’re constantly being creative to solve problems, to enrich our lives, but in ways that aren’t necessarily professionally creative, or labeled as creative, or what we think of as creative, or not formally creative like a painting, or a poem, or a piece of music, so we just kind of glance right by those things, but we’re creative by nature, and there are different types of creative expression that fit different types of people with different temperaments. So, I think that when we understand that we are inherently creative, and we’re able to link that basic human characteristic to others who are doing it full-time, in a formal context, and are called artists, then there’s a bridge right there. Then this ceases to be this kind of elite group of people doing this specialized trade.
So, again, to demystify what art is, you know, one way of doing that also is to provide a sort of behind-the-scenes glimpse of the artistic journey, you know, so giving people insight into how the creative process works, because when we look at it, we see it in its finished form typically, and, for most people, there isn’t much insight into how that thing came into the world. Some of the most fascinating exhibitions I’ve seen have been ones where the curator has laid out the process of creative development over years or decades, say, in the context of a retrospective, and we can see the artist’s development, how the artists move from one thing to another, or perhaps drawings, sketches, and preparatory plans are provided so that we get some insight. We can almost connect with a narrative of how the artist worked through problems, and we can get into the artist’s head and appreciate the messiness of that process. That certainly is demystification, but it’s also quite beautiful because we love the opportunity to see how creativity takes shape.
In my own teaching of visual art, I’m always emphasizing process over tools or over the finished product, because I really want the individual to appreciate that there’s a creative faculty that, for most people, is untrained and just sort of sits on a shelf and is not really touched, because we don’t live in a world that really promotes that, right? You go to medical school, let’s say, it’s like a trade school or law school, it’s like a trade school. You go and you learn what you need to fit into the economic order. You’re not given a holistic education, and creativity is left behind or not acknowledged, so, it’s really important that the creative process be visible in the things that we do, especially in artmaking.
Also, artists can do things like incorporate storytelling and narrative elements in their work, which can engage viewers on a more personal and emotional level. If they can weave compelling narratives or explore themes that resonate with human experiences, artists can draw people into their art and encourage a deeper engagement. With their work, they can create opportunities for dialogue and connection by organizing artist talks, panel discussions, or interactive exhibitions, and there’s more of this going on through advances in technology. Nowadays, there are so many seminars now available, and gallery talks. You are no longer restricted because of geographic limitations.
Artists can also work to embrace diversity and create art that reflects a wide range of perspectives and experiences that can also help bring in people from different walks of life when they incorporate diverse voices, themes, or styles. Artists can make their work more relevant and accessible to a broader audience. So there’s that. And then there’s education and outreach, and this is something that’s been going on a long time in museums that have departments that handle this specifically because they know the importance of getting their programs out to a wider public that doesn’t have an art education. But artists themselves can contribute to art education and outreach by sharing their knowledge and skills with others, like teaching art classes, mentoring emerging artists, or volunteering in community arts initiatives. They can nurture creativity in others, and they can provide opportunities for artistic expression through projects that they set up, and then, through their own work and their way of producing, they can inspire interest and engagement in the art world that they’re a part of.
So there are a lot of different ways that this can be done and I think that there’s more emphasis on interactivity in the arts in general, and there are more points of entry now than ever before. So, that’s a really hopeful sign that art can become much more a part of people’s everyday lives, and, with that, the benefits that it brings.
Radix: Yes, you’ve already answered a number of questions. I was thinking of just at the beginning of when you started talking was, “how can the average person help to facilitate in themselves and help contribute to a greater appreciation of artistic ability in just everyday things?” So, you’ve answered that question. I really appreciate those answers, and I assume that, with that said, you would be in agreement very much with the idea that it would be a wonderful––maybe even a needful––thing for churches to be able to make a space for those things to happen as much as possible.
AA: Yeah, I think it is really important on a number of levels that churches embrace the relationship between theology and the arts. And this is something in which a lot of work is being done and a lot of interesting possibilities and practical ideas have been put forward. So, it’s really a matter of the willingness of the church leadership and what it is that they feel is important to their congregation in terms of specifically what action they can take, but it’s certainly something that will enrich the lives of the congregation. I mean, the church really should be a transformative force. It should foster spiritual growth. It should ask challenging questions. It should promote justice and compassion, as well as provide a safe space for people to encounter God and journey together in faith.
So, if you’re thinking in terms of the realm of art and theology there are a number of things that churches can do. I mean, first of all, they can encourage pastors to recognize the profound connection between art and theology, that art has the capacity to explore theological themes, and that it can express spiritual insights. It can engage with the divine in unique ways, and pastors should be encouraged to value and integrate art within the worship experience and other church activities so that a deeper engagement with theological ideas is being fostered. It provides other perspectives into the belief systems so that new possibilities can open up for the individual. It just expands the field. Churches can encourage artistic expression by creating spaces within the church community for that and for artistic exploration. It can encourage artists within the congregation to use their gifts to create artwork that reflects their spiritual journey, and also helps deepen their and the congregation’s understanding of theology. A church can provide opportunities for artists to share their work and engage in dialogue with the church community.
There’s also the possibility of exploring in specific ways the symbolic language of art and almost providing an art education in the context of the church. I mean, that can be really interesting. I mean, if pastors engage with a symbolic language of art, as opposed to putting up images as illustrations for the Word that they’re speaking, for the written word, or for the sermon, exploring the images that are commonly being used as just kind of backdrops for their own sake, so that congregants can understand how visual elements can communicate theological concepts and evoke spiritual responses. They can promote the use of visual art as a means of enhancing worship, prayer, and reflection in the church context.
Then there’s also space and ritual. You know, church leaders can think in terms of the design of sacred spaces and the use of rituals as forms of artistic expression, as opposed to things that are just there or just part of a tradition. So, if there’s a thoughtful consideration of the architecture of sacred arts and ritual practices, this will help to create a more meaningful and immersive worship experience. If an appreciation for the aesthetics and symbolism of the church is fostered, then congregational participation and rituals can be encouraged.
The idea of the sensory and how important that is to worship can be highlighted. There was a presentation at our local Catholic church a while back called “The Mass on a Pause Button,” or something like that, and it was really wonderful. A senior pastor conducted a mass, but it was sort of a walkthrough mass, so all of the elements were activated, and the process rolled through in the usual way, but he would stop, make commentary, and explain things along the way about the rituals, the rites, the meaning of the symbols, and so forth of the things that he said. For example, just to give you an idea, was that when the mass begins, you need to be there at the very beginning, that if you come in a few minutes late, it’s the same as not being there at all. You have to be there for the entirety of the mass.
Now, this is Roman Catholic. So these kinds of things will vary, of course, from one denomination to another, but explaining why one bows at a certain point, explaining why one stands or sits at a certain point, you know, what this music or that music is for breaking it down step by step was really interesting, and helpful, and I’m not Catholic. So, I was looking at it also, you know, in terms of my own education. But I think that a lot of lifelong Catholics there didn’t know a lot of this information because they had just been taught it from childhood. This is what we do and this is how it rolls, but they didn’t really understand the deeper meanings, so this was something that I think happens regularly.
It might be an annual thing where it’s just kind of a check-in. Let’s talk about what the mass is really about. Why are we doing what we are doing? A lot of that is aesthetics. For example, explaining this is why our vestments are green, or this is a season when our vestments are red. This is what that means and tying that to the liturgical calendar. So, understanding the role of images and objects in the larger context of worship, so that we can understand the unifying principles, makes for a greater appreciation of what’s going on, a deeper immersion into it, and just a fuller experience, where one is actively partaking, as opposed to passively enduring.
Radix: Not totally connected, but a little bit connected: I feel like evangelicals have been picked upon very, very heartily in the last number of years and for just reason, but just to throw another stone, it seems like the evangelical folk—it’s not just them, but—because of the theological underpinnings, there has been this great emphasis on the Word, but then they exclude the visual, and there’s so much that has been missed because of that
AA: Right.
Radix: For sure, the Word is important. I mean, yes, absolutely, but it’s not just the Word. We’re multi-sensual creatures, and there’s a variety of ways of knowing. I mean, including intuition and all these other things, but just to assume that the Word is the only thing that we can learn from, I think that’s been damaging and especially for people who are maybe more artistically inclined for the visual or, or the auditory. Yeah, that was just a comment, but…
AA: Well, I have two thoughts on that. One is that we are embodied spirits and thus we respond to the world through our senses, and putting those on hold, or pretending that those don’t exist so that we become sort of these disembodied intellects is not, to me, a full spiritual experience. It’s not too large a step from that to looking at physicality and the body as something less than spirit and thus embracing a dualistic vision of reality, which is problematic and not what Jesus himself taught. So, one shouldn’t assume that, well, if we bring in the aesthetic in the form of music, art, architecture incense, candles, and so forth, that that is a surplus, that that adds to the experience. I would say that those things are fundamental to worship, to bringing us to a place where we are open and receptive to God’s presence as living embodied beings. God came to us in the form of Jesus Christ to relate to us as a body and to suffer the human experience.
So, that’s one thing. The other thing that comes to mind is that this emphasis on the Word also suggests that the Word is where it’s at, and everything else is surplus; illustration for the Word is not really ultimately necessary, you know, if we’re on a desert island or whatever. But that’s a historically specific ideology that goes back to the idea of the Bible as inerrant, you know, as this understanding or belief that the Bible is itself theology. But theology is something different. The Bible is a collection of books of a variety of types that provide spiritual guidance and are inspired writings, but it’s very instructive to go through Christian history and look at how things have evolved from the Reformation forward through Lutheran, Calvin, and so forth, to see where these ideas about the inerrancy of the Bible come from, because this sort of worship of the Bible is a relatively modern phenomenon.
The Bible has been continuously interpreted and reinterpreted. That’s what makes it a living text over the centuries, and it’s been its function in different ways for different Christian communities around the world. The problem with that mindset of “it’s the Bible, first and foremost, and everything else is secondary” is that it fails to recognize that this is a historically contingent situation, that it’s a relatively recent phenomenon, this idea of the inerrancy of the Bible, but there’s a lot to that, which I’m not going to attempt to unpack. Just to say, go back and look at anybody who feels stuck in that, go back and look at Christian history. You don’t have to go too far to see it splinter immediately before the modern period into many different sorts of practices, beliefs, and so forth, that some things were canonized, and other things were considered heretical. Some things have been brought back. Some things we learned through traditions that have been forgotten. The mystical tradition itself is something that’s a minor threat in terms of the larger world’s understanding of Christianity, but that’s a thread that I’ve delved into because that’s the one that speaks truth to me because it’s experientially-based, not belief-based.
Radix: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not totally connected, somewhat connected. Maybe you can make it connected?
AA: I’ll try. Okay.
Radix: I’ve been hearing lately that art is something that can bring people together, and I remember when I first heard that, I thought, “Yes, also sometimes no, because certain art is appreciated by certain people.” And when we say art, I mean, it might be movies. It might be music. So, a form of art, let’s say is, is rap. I don’t know if that brings people together. Now it might bring a certain community of people who appreciate rap, or there might be certain movies that are critical of––insert our favorite political, theological, or whatever it is group––and a person who really appreciates a specific movie or something, it might actually make them more critical of someone else. So, that’s one thought, this idea that art can bring people together in terms of creativity and bringing their humanity together. So, what is your thought about that? I mean, I’m hopeful that you’re hopeful about art as a power, as a thing that actually can create unity or at least, at least help it.
AA: Yeah, and I think that it’s a good question, particularly in the context of the increasing polarization and tribalism in our society. Art firstly has the potential to evoke emotions that transcend ideological or tribal boundaries. It gets to those things that are fundamental for human beings, to experience, and, in that sense, you can say that it touches on universal human experiences. You know, it stirs empathy. It can also create a sense of shared connection. So, it’s like diving below the circumstances of our life situation to a more fundamental level of who we are and how we’re connected––as Christians, we say, in the body of Christ. So, if we engage with art, and we’re from different backgrounds or perspectives, we can find ourselves experiencing similar emotions or contemplating common themes, and this can lead to understanding and empathy.
Now, of course, these are sort of ideals. These are things that we can strive for in art-making. These aren’t things that necessarily happen as commonplace experiences, but it is important to recognize the potential. These are things that we can reach for. Art can act as a bridge for dialogue and conversation. Oftentimes today, we find ourselves asking, where is the commonality? How can we begin a conversation with people that we know have very different views from us? Well, art can be a conduit for that. So, it can serve as a starting point for people with different viewpoints to come together. For example, around an art situation or art events out of which different interpretations can be discussed and shared, exploration can be done about underlying messages or themes. And when we focus on the artistic experience, rather than addressing divisive topics in our artmaking, we can create a more open and receptive space for a meaningful conversation.
And I think that the most profound art, while on the surface or the vehicle for it, might be something that’s topical or something that might be even very loaded socially or politically, the important thing about what happens with the art happens way, you could say, either below that or above that, depending on how you conceptualize, but as much more fundamental, like, the way art operates as much more fundamental than any kind of ideology. Ideologies sit on the surface and art moves in the deeper depths of who we are, is how I would put it.
Art also has the power to challenge our assumptions and also to disrupt entrenched beliefs. Now, that being said, of course, one has to be open. It’s like what I said earlier about, you know, if you approach art with folded arms, expecting it to do something for you then this is not going to happen. But if you are stirred by art, if you’re moved by something—and let’s remind everybody that we’re talking about the full spectrum here, I mean, this could be a film, okay—if you’re stirred by it, and you become that open and receptive, it can kind of work into you, work into your entrenched beliefs, and liberate something. So, effective art can push boundaries, it can confront societal norms and can offer alternative perspectives, which, being in a receptive state because you’re caught in the spell of the arts, might then make you open to considering alternate perspectives. So, when you encounter art that challenges your preconceived notions or presents new ideas. If you are open to what the art can do, then that can provoke reflection, and can ultimately create an opportunity for dialogue across ideological or tribal lines.
And, you know, you can find conversational partners through a shared love of something, and this can be high art, as they call it, or it can be something in popular culture. It could be a shared love of anime, whatever it might be, because I don’t focus my attention specifically on art. I look at art as one part of the larger visual culture in terms of its relationship to theology. So, it’s important to kind of move up and down or across the spectrum and consider all possibilities, because not everybody has an entry point with fine art.
But artists can also help to bridge divides that can foster empathy and understanding by portraying diverse characters, stories, and perspectives. That’s something that often happens even in many mainstream Hollywood films. And then the art has a capacity to humanize the other and create a sense of shared humanity when we’re exposed to people that we wouldn’t normally come across through, let’s say, a very effective documentary film about an oppressed group of people. The film works as art to elicit our empathy, and to open us to seeing how other people live, and then connecting to those people through our shared humanity.
So this allows us then to entertain other perspectives, and to realize that the world is much bigger than, you know, that little place that we normally occupy for safety, security, and predictability, which we all need, but it’s important to venture outside on a regular basis if you want to grow, you know. When we engage with art that presents different viewpoints, then we develop a greater appreciation for the complexity and the diversity of human experiences, the things that we’re not experiencing ourselves.
And then art also has a capacity to inspire, to uplift our spirit, and, in the process, it can offer glimpses of beauty, wonder, and transcendence. These are the words that we often read or hear in relation to theology from an aesthetic standpoint, this interest in beauty, and imagination as well. In a divided and polarized world, that experience of beauty and the contemplation of the transcendent can really function as a unifying force. So, while we appreciate and engage with art that evokes these qualities – beauty, wonder, transcendence – it challenges us and encourages us to explore our imaginations.
We can connect on a deeper level that goes way beyond our ideological differences, but it is important, at the same time, not to overstate the situation, because while art can contribute to bringing people together, it’s also important to recognize that it’s not a panacea for all societal divisions. It’s one thing that we can do. I mean, overcoming deep-seated tribalism and ideological divides really requires a multifaceted approach that encompasses empathy, open-mindedness, and a commitment to respectful dialogue. So, it’s a choice a person makes, just like the choice to be open in front of an artwork, or when engaging in an art experience, let’s say, an installation or some sort of interactive project. But the unique ability of art to touch hearts, challenge assumptions, and create shared experiences, makes it a powerful tool for fostering understanding and bridging divides in society. So, it’s something that we have in our toolbox, but, sadly, also something that most people don’t look at or consider. It’s of great value in that regard, too.
Radix: Right. Right. That was a wonderful answer, thank you very much. Wow, that was, again, inspiring of hope. And you talked about more than just empathy, but I really latched on to that empathy aspect.
AA: It’s kind of like, if we put it in really kind of ordinary terms, if two people have very different political views, but they both love the same home football team, you know, and they’re big sports fans—I mean, that’s not my world, but just a common example—if they’re old friends and they get together and they go to the football game, I mean, that’s what they’re engaged in together, right? So, their political differences can become secondary, or kind of fade off into the background, as they enjoy the experience of that shared love and enthusiasm for the game. They share that together. I mean, I’ve never had an experience where my ideological position has outdone my feeling of connection to somebody who I genuinely appreciate because they’re a really good listener, or they’re very encouraging, or they’re enthusiastic and supportive of the work that I do. Those ideological differences immediately fall away because I share a love for that person.
And it’s in those moments, when we recognize that something more fundamental is coming to the surface, that we can see how really insignificant our beliefs are and how changeable they are as well, how impermanent they are, just like our emotions and our thoughts. They come and they go, and that changes also with different life circumstances. It’s affected by the communities that we live in and the people we talk with. So, I think, recognizing the relativity of our beliefs, including our religious beliefs, is really important, because then we can focus on what’s unchanging and what is ultimately truth, which is our shared humanity and our relationship to God. Which is not related to or dependent upon our mental frame, our belief system, or those things that we use to try to get a hold of reality and understand it in some way. It’s important to be flexible in our thinking.
Radix: Yeah. All that would make a grand conclusion. And, if I might be greedy, could I ask, do you have––because we’re going to have artists who are listening to and reading this––do you have any final thoughts maybe to suggest to artists, or maybe people who are interested in becoming artists? What would be some of your suggestions?
AA: In what context? In terms of encouraging the pursuit? Well, I think that, whatever we commit ourselves to, if we do it fully, and we recognize that that’s our calling, we’re not doing it because of what other people have told us, then it’s going to work out. And the sooner you recognize your gifts, and you appreciate their value, and you put those gifts, put yourself into action to put those gifts out into the world, the less you’re going to suffer. For so many people, there’s this zigzagging that happens from when they go to college to what they end up doing for a living, where they try so many different things, they go in so many different directions because of various influences, not having a clear idea of what it is, what their gifts are, and what they can bring into the world, and the false assumption that you should be aligning your interests or your passions or your gifts with economic variables. Right? So the classic example would be, to keep that as a hobby. You need to be able to earn a living. Like the thing about––I don’t know if you ever hear this––I’ve always heard this around me, people saying to a kid that’s really articulate, “You should be a lawyer.” I don’t know if they do that in Canada,
Radix: I think it’s universal, yes.
AA: Yeah. I think that’s so sad when they say that. So, there’s immediately this pegging of the person’s ability or one of their, maybe, many abilities to a career choice. And that kind of locks things in, in a certain way, you know, because the child is impressionable, and it gets them thinking a certain way in this kind of economic, utilitarian construct. So, artists become victims of that, because the people around them who have a similar mindset––certainly in the U. S., where, like I was saying earlier in our conversation, there is a lack of appreciation for the role of the artists. Even though, I think, there’s now more appreciation for what they call “the creatives,” which is a kind of interesting sort of catch-all phrase that can encompass graphic designers, web developers, and whatever else.
But artists often feel guilty about what they’re going into because they’re not getting the support and the encouragement they need. And add to that the economic and cultural landscape that is pretty ruthless, the lack of government support, the lack of cultural appreciation, venues, or opportunities, the outrageous expense of getting an art education, which goes along with, you know, the problem with the cost of education more generally, but art schools have always been particularly outrageous, not just visual art, and music schools as well. All of this is very daunting.
So, my advice would be: know what it is that you need to do and then commit yourself to it. And if your love is there, everything else will take care of itself. And that’s not just advice for artists, you know, that’s advice for anybody who’s looking to figure out what it is that they want to do in terms of a vocation. For so many people, the difficult part is just figuring out where their gifts are, because they’ve been kind of buried and they’ve come up through an educational system, through a community, or through parenting that hasn’t recognized those gifts, because they’ve been left in the shadows, underappreciated or considered as insignificant where other things have been emphasized––again, things that are economically feasible, or things that a particular family or community might value, for whatever reason, which are not necessarily in line with the gifts that God has given to that person.
So, first, discover what those things are, and when you really know what they are, what those gifts are, then it’s a question of finding out in your cultural context, given your resources and where you live, and you might have to change where you live to get with the people who can encourage and support this and don’t compromise the full development of your gifts because that’s what you were given. The sooner you get to that, the more you can do with it, and the fewer false starts. So, that would be exercising wisdom, you know, when you’re young, recognizing what your gifts are, and then having the courage to pursue them, and then being practical about how you can make that happen.
Radix: Good advice. Thank you very, very much. This has been most rewarding. Where can people find your work? Where should they look to see you?
AA: imageandfaith.com is my website, which functions as an archive of my project. My project includes my essays and other writings, my podcast, Visually Sacred, and my work with my online and in-person group, Contemplatives in Conversation. So, all of the things that I’m working on can be found on imageinfaith.com. Also, Contemplatives in Conversation has a Facebook group that I would encourage your listeners, if they’re interested in what we’ve been talking about, to join. We have great dialogue there and listeners can also follow me on Twitter
Radix: Thank you. I will provide links for those. Again, thank you very, very much. This has been really informative for me. I love the way you bring things across. Such things can be complicated, but I think you brought clarity at least you did for me. And I think I count as the average person, you brought it across to me in enlightening terms that you’re a good teacher. So, thank you very much again for this. I really appreciate it.
AA: I loved the questions. I love the opportunity to chat, and every time I talk about things like this, you know, it’s a learning experience for me as well, so I appreciate the opportunity.